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Post by Snowman99 on Jan 6, 2019 18:35:48 GMT -6
I have profound confidence in saying it will not snow around here later this week.
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Post by Chris Higgins on Jan 8, 2019 13:55:42 GMT -6
The pieces of the complex puzzle appear to be falling into place for a return of winter weather to the heart of the Bistate area. The potential for a fairly widespread moderate snow event...high end advisory or warning level event is on the table. While there may be some brief mixing early on in the event as evaporative cooling takes over...the bulk of the precipitation should fall as snow for the vast majority of viewing area as it stands right now. The other time for potential mixing is late in the event...as the stronger lift exits to the east and some freezing drizzle settles in late Saturday night into Sunday. The system in question is easily seen out over the eastern Pacific. Ahead of it... a return to winter temperatures will unfold steadily over the next couple of days as cold air builds south out of eastern/central Canada. This cold dry air will not have much time to moderate before WAA aloft starts to initiate precipitation in the return flow late Friday. As mentioned above... I see a mix early...before evap cooling cools the column to snow. The early soundings and storm track at 850mb argue for a mixed bag south of a line from Salem MO to near Mount Vernon, IL...for a good portion of the event...until the passage of the 850mb low turns on the cold air advection. There are any number of wildcards... not the least of which is the potential for a long duration event ... with some models showing additional energy rotating through the open wave and maintaining light snow in the wake of the main surge Friday night and Saturday. This could prolong the snowfall well into Saturday night if not early Sunday in some areas...leading to additional accumulation. Overall... I think widespread snow of 3" or more look likely for pretty much the entire viewing area...with snow starting after sunset Friday. The potential mix could extend as far north as a line from Salem, MO... to Farmington...to DuQuoin, IL...at least that's where I see it now. However, some decent accumulations still appear in order for those areas. This storm is starting to get the look of a healthy mid-winter storm...
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Post by bdgwx on Jan 8, 2019 14:03:40 GMT -6
EPS supports the idea of an advisory level event for most of us. It is about 0.5-0.7" QPF for the metro area. The odds for 3"+ is about > 50% for everyone with chances increasing to > 80% for those to the south. The odds for 6"+ are about 40% for the metro area and increasing to > 50 % for those to the south.
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Post by BRTNWXMAN on Jan 8, 2019 14:09:42 GMT -6
The size of the snow shield reminds me of the Christmas 2003 snowfall where the whole area got 3-6". That's what I'm leaning towards at this point.
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Post by Chris Higgins on Jan 8, 2019 14:11:14 GMT -6
The size of the snow shield reminds me of the Christmas 2003 snowfall where the whole area got 3-6". That's what I'm leaning towards at this point. BINGO! I have no doubt there will be sleet contamination south of STL...that is probably not well handled by models or model soundings.
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Post by STGOutdoors on Jan 8, 2019 14:14:21 GMT -6
The size of the snow shield reminds me of the Christmas 2003 snowfall where the whole area got 3-6". That's what I'm leaning towards at this point. BINGO! I have no doubt there will be sleet contamination south of STL...that is probably not well handled by models or model soundings. I fully expect sleet contamination down here because...well, Perryville.
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Post by bdgwx on Jan 8, 2019 14:15:21 GMT -6
Just a quick peak at snow-to-liquid ratios...the Cobb method from both the GFS and Euro are close to 10:1 on this one.
Thermal profile looks pretty good for a mostly snow event especially for the metro area. Areas to the south and especially west towards Springfield are at greater risk of ptype problems.
There is a lot of dry air showing up on the models on the east side of MO. This may delay onset of the precipitation and cut down on precipitation amounts, but the benefit is that it will help keep the column cool via evaporational cooling. Models do show the atmosphere moistening rather quickly so the dry air may end up being a non-issue, but history tells us it is prudent to always be on the look out for this mitigating factor.
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Post by mchafin on Jan 8, 2019 14:15:49 GMT -6
And never underestimate the power of the warm layer in a WAA situation. It could protrude north more than expected, thus, make for a lot of angry people in this here forum.
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Post by STGOutdoors on Jan 8, 2019 14:18:21 GMT -6
And never underestimate the power of the warm layer in a WAA situation. It could protrude north more than expected, thus, make for a lot of angry people in this here forum. Can't say this enough. The entire column looks cooler than previous storms where it became an issue, and we don't have the deep fetch coming strictly from the GOM (a more Pacific flow with this one), so that may help in this case. But like you said, it always tends to sneak in there.
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Post by bdgwx on Jan 8, 2019 14:21:02 GMT -6
The size of the snow shield reminds me of the Christmas 2003 snowfall where the whole area got 3-6". That's what I'm leaning towards at this point. Totally agree. This probably won't end up being a bona-fide winter storm for most of us, but there should be a lot of haves and only a few have-nots with this one. Assuming we can make it inside the 36 hour window without any big surprises (never a given) then this usually means the bust potential is on the lower end of the spectrum. So while it might not be a high impact event it should at least be an event. I'll take it.
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Post by The Commish- Lake St. Louis on Jan 8, 2019 14:23:57 GMT -6
Chris, serious question. Any particular reason MODOT doesn't have information suites like Kansas City offers with SCOUT. One of the things that would be of interest to many is road temperatures and bridge deck temperatures. I really wonder how much of an immediate impact a snow storm like this will have when pavement temps are so warm. I included the link to the dashboard to show everyone. Just curious www.stormwatch.com/dashboard/?dashboard=9ac2c9ee-8281-41ad-9014-bc59773887ee
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Post by unclesam6 on Jan 8, 2019 14:30:16 GMT -6
Hey Chris, do you guys use WSI? If so, how did you get your text to curve like that? I've been trying to figure it out.
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jjf723
Wishcaster
Shiloh/Belleville, IL in the MidWest
Posts: 93
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Post by jjf723 on Jan 8, 2019 14:34:21 GMT -6
The size of the snow shield reminds me of the Christmas 2003 snowfall where the whole area got 3-6". That's what I'm leaning towards at this point. I thought it was Christmas 2002, the only reason I remember is it was my mom's last Christmas and it made her very happy to see all of the snow. Sorry I don't mean to seem picky. Thanks for all you and the others who know their stuff do for us novices!
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Post by Chris Higgins on Jan 8, 2019 14:41:21 GMT -6
Hey Chris, do you guys use WSI? If so, how did you get your text to curve like that? I've been trying to figure it out. We do use WSI. It is text loaded into the jet stream layer...with no motion
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Post by bdgwx on Jan 8, 2019 14:41:35 GMT -6
The Springfield AFD...
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Post by bellevillewxguy on Jan 8, 2019 15:01:21 GMT -6
Well NAM is juiced up as usual. Already showing warning level accumulations and it's not even half done yet at the end of the run.
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Post by unclesam6 on Jan 8, 2019 15:11:10 GMT -6
Hey Chris, do you guys use WSI? If so, how did you get your text to curve like that? I've been trying to figure it out. We do use WSI. It is text loaded into the jet stream layer...with no motion Oooh. Clever. Thanks
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Post by BRTNWXMAN on Jan 8, 2019 15:14:42 GMT -6
The size of the snow shield reminds me of the Christmas 2003 snowfall where the whole area got 3-6". That's what I'm leaning towards at this point. I thought it was Christmas 2002, the only reason I remember is it was my mom's last Christmas and it made her very happy to see all of the snow. Sorry I don't mean to seem picky. Thanks for all you and the others who know their stuff do for us novices! You may be right...it was one of those two years. I just remember the entire radar being filled with moderate echo all day and a nice area-wide snowfall.
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Post by STGOutdoors on Jan 8, 2019 15:17:00 GMT -6
I still have concerns about a northern shift. I've been burned too many times not to.
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Post by Frivolousz21 on Jan 8, 2019 15:25:43 GMT -6
Right now I think going within expectations of a 3-5 inch snowfall it's probably a pretty good play.
There will be multiple pieces of vorticity working together phasing as a destroyer of carbs itself out heads East and then eventually merges with the PV anomaly over Southeast Canada.
This system is coming with a very Stout moisture plume for this time of year the models show saturation taking place very quickly in spite of the ambient dry air.
The weather models also show the column being saturated all the way up tippy tippy top.
This means precipitation efficiency will be at near peak level again this time of year in this cold of an air mass.
Try to look at it like there has been times with clippers that we had incredible lift with compact energy.
There has been systems where we had Omega values in the -32 - 40 range. And yet we still didn't see that much snow.
Because moisture was lacking.
This system is loaded moisture wise and there's a chance it won't even pull in gulf of Mexico moisture as the system phases as they pass through the Mississippi valley.
Long story short there is a chance and we will see a slowing down facing digging system with a sharper trough that ends up closing off.
Even if the system only closes off at h5 or h7 for a half a day or a day.
With the amount of moisture in place that the system has large-scale ascent and meso scale lift could come into play.
Any ways to finish this off there's a chance we will see a dynamic system where we get an initial thump of 3-5" of WAA snow. Which will be widespread over most of the metro.
Then as the system phases deepens and organizes.
They will be a large area of generally light snow and sleet and freezing drizzle after that waa snow passes.
Then there will probably be some meso scale processes bands of snow or clusters of snow showers that will add some accumulation to the mix.
Given the current track of the system this would probably be along interstate 70 and possibly to the north a little bit.
But then lastly we might see a surge of gulf of Mexico and Pacific moisture laden precipitation coming from the large-scale is sent from the deepening closed off system.
This would probably look like a slug precip blowing up from South Central Missouri heading Northeast towards St Louis metro area.
As this general direction of precip will be slowly heading off to the east they'll be some precip intersecting it that is bubbling North and possibly North Northwest.
In fact this precipitation might even look stationary 4 time.
but it's only that way because of the pivot point of the deepening system as you all know it just so happened that in this case it looks like all signs are pointing to that taking place right over our area.
additional snowfall amounts from this process could range anywhere from one or two up to a half a foot.
So after that long-winded diatribe frivolous right now says his first broad forecast is 4-9".
This is for along 44/64 in I'll and no.
And along I 70 in I'll and mo out to warrensberg but West of there I expect less.
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Post by Frivolousz21 on Jan 8, 2019 15:26:52 GMT -6
Oh Union, MO is my current jackpot city.
Not a joke. I believe this.
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Post by bdgwx on Jan 8, 2019 15:28:33 GMT -6
I still have concerns about a northern shift. I've been burned too many times not to. Also watch for a split or double maxima in precipitation and a general lowering of QPF amounts. It's all stuff we've seen before. Hopefully this one is different, but we can't bank on it.
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Post by BRTNWXMAN on Jan 8, 2019 15:34:27 GMT -6
EC control takes it a step further, closing off a nice mid-level low overhead into Sunday with another 2-4" of snowfall from the deformation...WSW material.
This seems to be the overall trend with quicker/stronger phasing. This system definitely has some deep moisture to work with. So if everything comes together a major storm is possible(6"+)...but I'm still leaning towards a moderate event right now.
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Post by STGOutdoors on Jan 8, 2019 15:37:58 GMT -6
I see an ever so subtle hint of a slightly warmer/further north solution. This needs to stop or I will be unpleased to say the least.
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Post by bellevillewxguy on Jan 8, 2019 15:40:22 GMT -6
CPC has areas along and south of I-44/I-64 (MO/IL) under a 'Heavy Snow' hazard for Friday into Saturday.
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Post by bellevillewxguy on Jan 8, 2019 15:41:16 GMT -6
I see an ever so subtle hint of a slightly warmer/further north solution. This needs to stop or I will be unpleased to say the least. Still over 3000 miles away. Plenty of time for flips and flops. Not going to be fully sampled until Thursday 12Z runs at least.
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Post by addicted2wx - Villa Ridge, Mo on Jan 8, 2019 15:41:27 GMT -6
Oh Union, MO is my current jackpot city. Not a joke. I believe this. High elevation is amazing even by a few hundred feet as we have seen time and time again. I’ll take any model at this point and lock it in fir Franklin County. Maybe we will get our Official WSW this time rather than a non issued one that should have been last time. Not sure the amount of days with out that elusive warning but I think it’s close to 700 days....
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Post by BRTNWXMAN on Jan 8, 2019 15:44:06 GMT -6
I see an ever so subtle hint of a slightly warmer/further north solution. This needs to stop or I will be unpleased to say the least. I could see a slight adjustment north, but the ballooning upstream ridge/meridional flow should keep any big shifts in check and if anything, a slight S jog seems more likely with such a deep N flow digging into the trof.
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Post by beaker - Dardenne Prairie, MO on Jan 8, 2019 15:45:17 GMT -6
Cpc has southern mo outlined for heavy snow hazard including st louis.
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Post by beaker - Dardenne Prairie, MO on Jan 8, 2019 15:48:46 GMT -6
Next 2 weeks temps and precip forecasted by cpc to be above normal woth odds elevated at 40 to 50 pct week 1 thenweek 2 respectively. But alaska also mostly above normal temps so if the alaskan ridge continues to build then late jan cld be colder.
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