|
Post by bdgwx on Jul 22, 2022 14:15:04 GMT -6
We'll have to wait for the official report, but it looks like we hit 100F again today. NBM is forecasting 103F tomorrow. NWS is going with 102F. We might hit 100F on Sunday as well. Monday should be significantly cooler...dare I say below average even?
|
|
|
Post by ajd446 on Jul 22, 2022 15:36:21 GMT -6
Well 4 pm was 101 at lambert. So official I believe the 5th 100 degree day of the year
|
|
|
Post by tedrick65 on Jul 22, 2022 16:11:26 GMT -6
Getting a few drops and a rumble of thunder at Big Bend and Dougherty Ferry. Whatever's happening must be developing right overhead.
|
|
|
Post by ajd446 on Jul 22, 2022 17:00:44 GMT -6
What's happening with the NWS products. Nothing is updating. Is there and outage?
|
|
|
Post by amstilost on Jul 22, 2022 17:51:56 GMT -6
About 20 minutes ago it was nice and cloudy here and rumbles of thunder from good looking cloud to the west of us. I thought even if it doesn't rain at least this puts a smile on my face hearing thunder. Now I can see rain coming out of it. Very little Thunder now but it is blocking the Sun. I strung my water hose over to the pond. I will leave it on for a bit. I just fed the fish were the hose is running in so they should be able to gain some cool water anyway. I'm sure I'd have to leave the water on for a long time to see any appreciable rise in the pond level.🤔🤔
|
|
|
Post by beaker - Dardenne Prairie, MO on Jul 22, 2022 19:28:11 GMT -6
That's what I was wondering. I don't think there was much in the way of agriculture/golf course in the 50's. Just plain desert surrounding the fledgling city. It's just interesting stuff to me how the natural micro/environments have been altered by humans and the effects. I'm talking small scale stuff here but the ever growing cities/suburbs have to have unintended consequences somewhere down the line. Change in land use is a considerable factor in temperature record trends with so many recording stations in/near metropolitan areas that have been developed over the decades. I feel like that's not really accounted for well in these climate outlooks/models and I wonder how you would accurately gauge it and correct that bias. I guess a good start would be comparing remote stations with ones in developed areas and see what kind of bias is shown. I was wondering if the metropolitan area reporting of temperatues was being exploited to over exaggerate the world temperature myself. I know climate changes, but how much of those pretty linear charts going up over the years are due to urban sprawl. I mean we know at lambert, its a lot warmer at night than warrenton.
|
|
|
Post by cozpregon on Jul 22, 2022 20:23:11 GMT -6
Why would they do something like that
|
|
|
Post by bdgwx on Jul 22, 2022 20:50:54 GMT -6
Change in land use is a considerable factor in temperature record trends with so many recording stations in/near metropolitan areas that have been developed over the decades. I feel like that's not really accounted for well in these climate outlooks/models and I wonder how you would accurately gauge it and correct that bias. I guess a good start would be comparing remote stations with ones in developed areas and see what kind of bias is shown. I was wondering if the metropolitan area reporting of temperatues was being exploited to over exaggerate the world temperature myself. I know climate changes, but how much of those pretty linear charts going up over the years are due to urban sprawl. I mean we know at lambert, its a lot warmer at night than warrenton. This is an incredibly complicated topic. I was going to post a lengthy explanation of what is going on, but I deleted it all because it was way too nerdy. The short answer is no, the UHI effect does not translate into a positive bias on the global average temperature trend. If anything it may actually be causing a negative bias at least after WWII. That's right...negative! Wickham et al. 2013 assess the bias as -0.10 C/century from 1950 to 2010. Others have arrived at a similar result. If you're interested in the reasoning why let me know and I'll try to retype a more terse explanation. BTW...fun fact that is completely irrelevant...one of the authors on that paper (and other Berkeley Earth publications) is Saul Perlmutter. The massively geeky among you will recognize this name. That is the guy who figured out the universe's expansion is accelerating and won a Nobel Prize for his achievement. Though he may be better known for his role in a Big Bang Theory episode playing himself in a cameo appearance and to dis out insults to Sheldon. I guess processing supernova and other astronomical data got too boring for him.
|
|
|
Post by beaker - Dardenne Prairie, MO on Jul 22, 2022 21:02:37 GMT -6
So urban areas are not heating up as fast as rural areas, creating the negative bias?
|
|
|
Post by bdgwx on Jul 22, 2022 21:20:48 GMT -6
So urban areas are not heating up as fast as rural areas, creating the negative bias? Urban areas most definitely are warming faster than rural areas. But that's not a bias. That is a real effect. The UHI Bias is different than the UHI Effect though they are definitely related topics. The UHI Effect is only positive. In other words, it always leads to higher temperatures in urban areas. But depending on a lot of different factors this bias on the global average temperature can and probably is (at least over some periods) be negative. To understand why you have to understand how the global average temperature is calculated. It is calculated by gridding the planet into cells. Observations are then aggregated to form a value for each cell. The global average temperature is then the area weighted average of all the cells. The key to understanding the bias is to understand that the cells are often large enough to represent both rural and urban areas. For example, imagine a cell that is 75% rural and 25% urban. If 75% of the observations for that cell are from urban stations AND those urban stations are experiencing an increase in the magnitude of the UHI effect then the bias on that cell will be positive. But, if the official observation site got moved from a city center to the outskirts of town (this was common after WWII) the station would exhibit a changepoint with overall lower temperature reporting precisely because the UHI effect is positive. The bias that this causes on that cell is now negative. Similarly if the ratio of rural-to-urban stations increases (common after WWII) it will cause a negative bias precisely because the UHI effect is positive. There are many other configurations that can lead to both a positive and negative bias. And there are a lot of details and caveats here I'm not going to even attempt to get into. The salient point here is that the UHI effect is different than the bias it causes during gridding and averaging operations. It is important not to conflate these concepts. BTW...there is an effect opposite the UHI as well. Agriculture suppresses daily highs. Being in St. Louis and near arguably the most fertile croplands in the entire world both of these effects are competing simultaneous for us. One of the big advancements in weather modelling over the last couple of decades is land use changes; not just in urban areas, but rural areas as well. Right now I think the GFS (and others) use static cropland parameterizations. This is part of the reason why its temperature forecasts can be off. It doesn't know if the corn and soy crops around us are wilting or how aggressively the farmers are irrigating from day to day both of which have a dramatic effect on evapotranspiration, soil moisture, albedo, etc.
|
|
|
Post by cozpregon on Jul 22, 2022 21:33:23 GMT -6
Any cells in the middle of the ocean 40+ years ago have to be estimated
|
|
|
Post by cozpregon on Jul 22, 2022 21:44:21 GMT -6
How many rural obs were in a particular cell in 1950
|
|
|
Post by yypc on Jul 23, 2022 7:40:17 GMT -6
Just 2 more days of this
|
|
|
Post by bdgwx on Jul 23, 2022 7:51:27 GMT -6
Sparseness of observations is a much bigger problem. Actually, the UHI bias is probably the least of the problems. Instrument/shelter change biases, time-of-observation bias, observation procedure biases, grid cell infilling bias, etc. are all much worse. The biggest problem of them all, like by far, is the switch from bucket measurements to ship/buoy measurements after WWII. This introduces an extreme positive bias on the warming trend since bucket measurements are biased low and ship/buoy measurements are biased high relative to each other. The bias here is at least an order of magnitude higher than that for the UHI bias.
The number of rural and urban observations varies both by cell location and by time. One year the same cell might be 50/50 while the next it could be 60/40 or 40/60 or whatever. That's where the problem comes in. And there are still record digitization efforts ongoing. If you calculate the temperature today and compare it to a calculation tomorrow you'll almost certainly get a slightly different result because the GHCN (and like) repository is continually accepting observations that are years, decades, and even 100 years old as those hand written records finally get digitized and uploaded.
|
|
|
Post by bdgwx on Jul 23, 2022 8:05:59 GMT -6
An airplane recorded 23.5 C at 850mb at 12Z this morning. We have the southwest flow in effect today and 850mb temperatures are forecasted to at least hold firm if not increase a bit. NBM is saying 103F. Keep in mind that it has been underestimating the temperature this summer by a degree or two. We cannot eliminate the possibility that this will be the warmest day of the year.
|
|
|
Post by jmg378s on Jul 23, 2022 8:20:39 GMT -6
Dewpoints have been mixing out to 61 or 62 the last couple of days and no reason to think it won't be the same or perhaps a degree or two lower. Clearly less water in the soil to suck up some of the insolation so stage is set for another superadiabatic surface temp response. Gained 23F degrees yesterday and today is already starting 6F warming. Thinking airport will make it above the 103F season high so far.
|
|
|
Post by REB on Jul 23, 2022 8:23:57 GMT -6
Got up early to water and pull weeds. It is really nasty out there. I am now inside for the day. Stay hydrated.
|
|
|
Post by STGOutdoors on Jul 23, 2022 8:25:49 GMT -6
That’s what I keep focusing on as well! It won’t be a dramatic cool down (never is this time of year), but I will take 85-90 with storm chances and clouds ALL day long over this blast furnace.
|
|
|
Post by jmg378s on Jul 23, 2022 8:46:14 GMT -6
Here's a pointless question. Would you rather it be 95 degrees with 75 dewpoint or 105 degrees with 60 dewpoint? Both about the same heat index of 107...
I hate both but I'd rather the hotter dryer scenario I think.
|
|
|
Post by Snowstorm920 on Jul 23, 2022 8:51:50 GMT -6
105/60 for sure
Those mid 70 DPs are just suffocating
|
|
|
Post by Chris Higgins on Jul 23, 2022 9:00:16 GMT -6
Up in South Bend for a family wedding and boy did we have a big ole storm around sunrise! Wind, rain...more rain.. and non-stop lightning. It was nice to observe as a "normal" person. 105+ possible in STL today... good luck with that!
|
|
|
Post by yypc on Jul 23, 2022 9:09:02 GMT -6
Here's a pointless question. Would you rather it be 95 degrees with 75 dewpoint or 105 degrees with 60 dewpoint? Both about the same heat index of 107... I hate both but I'd rather the hotter dryer scenario I think. 105/60 feels significantly better than 95/75 imo
|
|
|
Post by bdgwx on Jul 23, 2022 9:26:03 GMT -6
105/60 for me as well. There is just something about the humidity that sucks the life out of you.
|
|
|
Post by guyatacomputer - NE St. Peters on Jul 23, 2022 9:54:04 GMT -6
Here's a pointless question. Would you rather it be 95 degrees with 75 dewpoint or 105 degrees with 60 dewpoint? Both about the same heat index of 107... I hate both but I'd rather the hotter dryer scenario I think. 105/60. At that point my sweat can provide me some evaporative cooling. With the other one I sit in a puddle of sweat.
|
|
|
Post by BRTNWXMAN on Jul 23, 2022 9:54:40 GMT -6
Up in South Bend for a family wedding and boy did we have a big ole storm around sunrise! Wind, rain...more rain.. and non-stop lightning. It was nice to observe as a "normal" person. 105+ possible in STL today... good luck with that! They've been getting slammed all summer up there. I've got a friend that lives in SB and they got two consecutive flash floods within 24-36hrs a couple weeks or so ago.
|
|
|
Post by ajd446 on Jul 23, 2022 10:02:01 GMT -6
Ok lambert 95 already. Im going with 10 degree rise from the noon hour. I feel like we will hit 108 today. The clouds that we had are gone and it is heating up fast. Just my thoughts letsnsee how close. 104 tp 105 for sure at lambert just like chris mentioned.
|
|
|
Post by cardsnweather on Jul 23, 2022 10:34:02 GMT -6
Honestly, the days in June were worse than today. The breeze helps and maybe I’m just getting used to it.
|
|
|
Post by BRTNWXMAN on Jul 23, 2022 11:02:55 GMT -6
Honestly, the days in June were worse than today. The breeze helps and maybe I’m just getting used to it. Those U70/L80 dewpoints were no joke. HIs are significantly lower this round. It's still scorching hot!
|
|
|
Post by amstilost on Jul 23, 2022 11:05:51 GMT -6
My years of inside shop and outside Field Construction work definitely built up my tolerance for this weather. Being from CA I also would settle for 105/60 as far as heat goes. I will tolerate the more humid conditions though, because, there is usually a much better chance for hit and miss storms. I fondly remember driving 100 miles one way during the 'monsoon season' in the CA mountains/deserts just to get under/witness a thunderstorm. It would be pretty humid during these times. Couple that with a 1966 car that I had to turn the AC off because of over-heating issues and two unhappy baby daughters, 1 and 3, and a very unhappy wife. Not sure if that qualifies me as a 'weather nerd' or just not very smart. Edit: After being corrected the youngest was only 2 months old so this would have been late Aug. early Sept. of 1987.
|
|
|
Post by ajd446 on Jul 23, 2022 12:13:52 GMT -6
Altrady 101. Im going with 109 and locking it in. Im sure I will be way off but I feel with these strong winds its going to push the record
|
|